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Sep 5, 2023
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I can certainly believe that regular Spanish people put a lot of effort into cooking at home and do well at that, especially given the report that my 'natural exposures' are inauthentic and bad for reasons unrelated to what makes Spanish food good. Especially if people are putting in massively more effort (similar to how I put in a bunch of effort) far more often.

I've been on multiple trips to Spain for vacations, and several others for work or tournaments. The food aspects consistently went poorly, but your description is consistent with this as well - Spaniards are, if I understand you correctly, getting a lot out of eating, but not in a way that lets an outsider take advantage of it, even in restaurants they can't teach others how to cook the real foods, and ingredient quality is a local thing, so I'm SOL regardless even if you're right?

Taking a three week food vacation is not something I will ever be able to do anywhere.

The Bay Area offer is more interesting, that could perhaps work some time.

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fyi that's a different Jorge than THIS Jorge which generally comments on AI stuff.

The only food advice I can give you is w/r/t Venezuelan food (a subtype of Caribbean food and roughly correctly rated by the giant chart):

1. Arepas - mid. Only a few great varieties, notably the "Reina Pepiada" and only from a few places in the US.

2. Tequeños - When prepared properly and served hot they are great. These are not just cheese sticks, they are S-tier finger food.

3. Hallacas - Holiday food similar but strictly superior to Central American tamales. I'm not saying this out of some misplaced sense of nationalistic pride (I have none), but hallacas are pretty much unbeatable. They are nearly impossible to find in the US, but there are places in NY and DC that make them in December/January.

You're spot-on about Brazilian food by the way, pão de queijo are up there with tequeños in terms of "awesome stuff made with dough and cheese".

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How much does "authenticity" really matter? Is "authentic" a synonym for "great tasting" in this case? Or are we talking about authenticity for the sake of authenticity?

I'm also happy to go try the best Spanish restaurant in NYC, as per your opinion.

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Fun post!

You'd think a post like this couldn't be objectively wrong, but it is: Mongolian Barbecue is neither Mongolian nor barbecue.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolian_barbecue

(You're also wrong about Spanish food, but that's subjective. Good Spanish food is really good. But that's just my opinion.)

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Where is the best Spanish place in NYC, then?

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Sep 5, 2023
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Casa Mono it is then, that's been on my maybe list for a while.

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Update: Yeah, they're pretty awesome, 5/5 very well sourced, flavored and designed dishes (ignoring the salad my wife got that I would never want anyway, and the poor choice of bread offering). I'll definitely be back, I see why they have a Michelin star (and as usual, I am thankful they stop at one).

(Fun fact: The Iberian Ham they offered costs triple what it costs elsewhere due to tariffs?)

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To add on to this, food in actual Mongolia is just not very good. Not diverse, poor access to fresh or high quality ingredients, not really interesting cooking techniques. I've been to ~40 countries, Mongolia was clearly the worst and far behind the second worst in terms of food quality.

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Fair enough. I certainly wasn't judging the authentic thing!

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Have you been to London?

:-)

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Seconded. Especially if you like variety.

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It has many good restaurants, of which only a few serve English cuisine.

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My first thought was Melbourne, but yes, London.

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Having lived in London and NYC, I found that London had NYC beat for overall variety of food all over the city. The one thing I found that London does not match is the amount of Asian restaurants but there still a lot, especially high end. Also NYC destroys it when it comes to variety in supermarkets. Talking to a friend working in F&B, this seems to be the concensus there.

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A few times. Not recently. It did not go great. I can believe things have improved a lot.

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When I lived in mountain view there were four different Mongolian barbecues on the one downtown street in the city. I was and remain confused by this.

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As an Australian, this claim about median food quality in the US sounds kind of insane to me. Admittedly I haven’t spent much time there, but I’ve been decidedly unimpressed by the food. Maybe it’s just a combination of the bad exchange rate and where I’ve been, but it was absurdly expensive and generally mediocre…

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The US has the highest median salaries after tax in the world, so anyone traveling there will feel like they're not getting a good deal.

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But it was meh even if I imagined I wasn’t paying twice the listed price! Not to mention ludicrous behaviours like offering free dessert if I left a positive Google review… (Which quickly made it apparent my decision-making algorithm was being gamed.)

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Did you go to one of the restaurants recommended by Michelin or some other noteworthy guide? You are right that your local Olive Garden or Applebee's isn't exactly the pinnacle of culinary delight.

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Huh. I have literally never been offered a positive-review incentive at a restaurant...

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As an American, I found Australian to be underrated.

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That is because it is, and Australia is a _clear_ winner here, especially Melbourne and Sydney but not only.

I know now that Zvi has never been to Australia 😆

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You are incorrect! I have indeed been to Australia, multiple times, for Magic tournaments. However this was in contexts where I was focused on the events, so I didn't learn much about the food.

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I stand corrected. That is, though, quite the shame. Occasional (i.e. 1978, 2007) fits of left-wing utopianism aside Australia has pretty much perfected immigration: we get social, democratic and (over time) cultural assimilation but with sufficient laissez-faire that each ethnic group forms their own enclaves, supporting a vibrant and authentic culinary supply chain for their food.

The result is delicious, and you should go back to try to out, I would start with Melbourne.

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So, I'm not sure there's much of an "Australian" cuisine, per se, but our cities have a really good spread of high quality food from a huge range of ethnic cuisines, because we're such an immigrant heavy country, and we're rich enough to have really good ingredients. We also care a lot more about making the minimum standard edible, unlike America.

My experience as a tourist in America was actually pretty disappointing; we went just after the GFC so prices were fantastic, and the top restaurants were top restaurants, but ethnic diversity was actually pretty lacking - there was obviously Mexican food, and East Asian food, but I recall actively looking for an Indian restaurant in San Francisco and not finding one. I will say that America is the one place I've been able to eat out and not feel cheated and/or judged by the portion sizes. Almost any other country and I need to order 2 mains to not leave hungry.

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Weird that you couldn't find Indian in SF - for reference I've been going to Amber India for decades when that's what I want, although that doesn't reflect much exploring. I agree that Indian is often undercovered - I couldn't get it in Warwick at all for example - but it's not 'hard to find in SF' level bad.

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it was more than a decade ago, I might be misremembering. I was studying at UCSB for 6 months and definitely missed variety there, though. The restaurants that were there were excellent, to be fair (the cafeteria of the college dorms, not so much)

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Talking about American food is like talking about European food as whole. There is way too much regional variety for it to be a coherent topic.

American BBQ and steaks are the best in the world.

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I have money much in America so I can only compare supermarkets and cheaper take away, but that compared so poorly with even Hobart, let alone Melbourne and Sydney for cheap and incredible take away.

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I've recently made a compilation of every national cuisine you can try in NYC, though of course it's not just the number of cuisines that makes the city's restaurants great: https://nsokolsky.substack.com/p/74-cuisines-you-can-try-in-new-york

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Enjoyed the post and I think conceptually it is accurate (America has the greatest variety and range of food options) but have to note that post-pandemic the experience of eating out in the US has degraded dramatically, I think with overall food quality dropping and price (particularly with tips, going from 18-20% to 20-30% expectations) going up a lot. For a family of four, we looked at vacations in Florida vs Barcelona during kids spring break, and Europe won on every measure - Florida tickets were 6-700, vs 400 for Barcelona, hotels were half the price for similar quality, and average meal for family of 4 was ~$200-250 with 1 drink per person in the US vs ~$90-110 in Spain and the food was much better in Spain for just about everything (from steak, to seafood, for everything but Sushi), and the overall dining experience was just much more pleasant and this is with a couple of kids who like to eat early-ish. Similar experiences in Italy, Greece and Eastern Europe. Maybe over time the lower amount of variety would hurt but the overall experience is much better in Europe except for maybe the really high-end US restaurants (which I will admit not willing to take my kids to yet).

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You can get an even better bargain if you go to Colombia. South America in general is highly underrated for both travel and gastronomy.

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I think you're right about many reasons why chains continue to be gathering places. Another is this: you're paying for menu predictability. Does the local restaurant likely have something everyone in the group will eat? Well, fairly likely if they don't have an allergy or dietary restriction. But do I want to have to guess ahead of time? And what if there is a serious restriction? Can they accommodate that? Do I want to trust that they _really_ can?

Well, let's put it this way: there's a reason that Cheesecake Factory, which optimizes for giant menu and has a pretty good ability to meet most "I'll die unless you get this right" menu restrictions, is beloved for team dinners by traveling professionals whose expense accounts stretch to far higher budget tiers.

Chains (when done well) are Schelling points on many, many dimensions at once.

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Now I am curious to know the name of the anonymous Magic pro who likes Olive Garden, although I respect Zvi's willingness to not publicly out somebody for clout.

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Just a few remarks from a german reader: Countries I'm missing in the discussion: Switzerland, Austria and Israel. Fantastic food in each of these countries but of course they are small (and maybe expensive, especially Switzerland) so they are easily overlooked. Turkey seems to be overrated but it is a holiday destination so people get into contact with this kind of food. Saudi Arabia is not your typical holiday destination, so it's not surprising they find themselves at the bottom of the list. Food in the Middle East never impressed me (exception: Israel), to me it's more or less the same everywhere. But maybe we all are biased in one or other way...

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Swiss food is somewhat limited but the meat whilst eye-wateringly expensive is excellent and the Fondue is just wonderful.

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Good point! Israeli food is fantastic (as are other Jewish cuisines from the diaspora)

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My view on Asian food in New York City is that it's easier to get truly mediocre Chinese in NYC than it is most other ethnically-inflected foods, I suspect because foot traffic and information costs keep places afloat where a reliance on repeat business would not. Conversely, I think it's a little harder to find top-drawer Thai food than some other cuisines but the quality of a basic Pahd Thai is remarkably consistent across a wide range of establishments and generally pretty good -- the quality floor ends up being pretty high even if less frequently exceeded.

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Interesting. I agree that mediocre/bad Chinese is remarkably easy to find - I had a post on Chinese food generally that referred to this as The Chain but I never published it. So you have to do work to find the good stuff. Like most other things, this is improving, several recent local openings have been very good.

For Thai I actually find that you can reliably do OK with other dishes like curries, but that Pad Thai in particular will often fail, because there are two styles - you have your Chilli Oil Pad Thai that neither my wife or I think is a good dish, even in otherwise great places. Then there is the other version, which is a great dish that even mediocre places do well, and it's often very hard to know which one is on offer. I still miss good old Ngam. Now I go to Thai Villa for everything else, except that they don't have the good Pad Thai.

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I think I've been lucky enough to dodge the Chilli Oil Pad Thai offering - "a great dish that even mediocre places do well" definitely tracks my experience with Pad Thai. Thai Basil on 9th Ave in Hell's Kitchen seems to be closed in the wake of the pandemic but it looks like its been succeeded by Der Krung in the same location which also appears to be well-reviewed.

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Your comment on baguettes is really about your poor ability to select food. France has many crap baguettes (and croissants!) but in any decent size town it is usually trivial to recognise a good one. My preferred local bakery has excellent sourdough, rustic wheat loaves and more to boot.

Also French restaurants certainly do vary but please judge them by the French version not the new York ones. For example no-one ever died wondering where the next course/coffee/ check was at lunchtime in a Paris restaurant!

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We have a misunderstanding with regard to the baked goods, which I affirm were very much the top highlights.

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My apologies I thought you were saying that they were good but not particularly, I think I overinterpreted that part.

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I don't think you have eaten in French restaurants outside of Paris. Disregard tourist traps. While travelling across the world you will encounter randomly good or bad diners and consistently bad chain establishments in the small towns in US and incredibly diverse and ALWAYS good taverns and trattorias in small towns in Europe. If you take into account the price it's not even close.

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Lots of confusion here about whether we are rating a countries cuisine, or the available restaurants in that country.

Tokyo has the best restaurants in the world and it's not even close. Aside from Japanese, many of world's best French, Italian, Spanish, and Chinese restaurants are all in Tokyo.

The chart seems fine for actual country rating. Though I think Southern American BBQ could be a "country" and rank up high.

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Skeptical that this isn’t biased by people’s perception of what represents their national cuisine. What is ‘American’, what is ‘British’? Agree some are easier to identify than others.

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I have the answer to applebee's/olive garden and it's neither compromise nor socialization (at least not exactly). It's comfort plus conformity.

I once dated a person who was an incredibly picky eater. People get confused about picky eating - they think it's an aversion to textures or tastes or whatever. It's none of those things. It's a fear that the thing you put in your mouth will be different than expected. If the picky eaters I've met in my travels tried a dish and it was a heavenly revelation, they'd be upset because they were not expecting to have a heavenly revelation right now thank you. Also it looked weird. So if you're going out on a date or going out with friends, you go to Applebee's. Because Applebee's will hand you the same greasy sandwich you've had 872 times before and it will be exactly as expected.

You might think that "picky eaters" is too small a base to build a chain empire on, but you'd be very wrong. While most Americans are not as drastically picky as this person was, there is a prevalent attitude in middle America that food should be reliable, predictable, made of the same 4 ingredients you always eat, and not have any weird foreign vibes.

These people also want to Go Out to a meal where a waiter serves them food and refills their glasses. They want to tip generously to impress their dates. They want to do the ritual of looking at a menu, asking questions about it and ordering food. They want to be absolutely certain that there is no tomato anywhere in the dish they order.

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Our kids absolutely loved Olive Garden when they were little. Most of the adult menu is essentially a high quality kids' menu - a little sweet, not too spicy. People absolutely love the breadsticks, which are the McDonalds' fries of pastry - salty, garlicy, and reliable. When I'm dieting, I appreciate that they have published calories and some low calorie options.

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I think there are different classes of picky eater - there's the thing you describe for sure, also there are people who have strong aversions or issues, myself included.

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